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2 yr. ago

  • USDA is inherently biased toward animal farming, and the first source I linked was a scientific study. But I'm not necessarily denying what USDA says. Holding a bias doesn't automatically make something untrue. You didn't quote anything they said, you made some hasty calculations based on their statistics, which seemed to overlook the distinction between male calves and female calves. You used this to make a statement that I never disagreed with, because I was making a different one. (One could call that a strawman fallacy).

    Humane League is an animal welfare organisation. Of course they're going to focus on the most ethically unsound aspects of animal farming, since that's their purpose, but nothing they said was false. They did acknowledge that some male calves in the dairy industry are raised for beef, but that most are killed for veal.

  • I'm sorry but your math doesn't reflect the reality of most dairy farms. The male calves are indeed mainly killed for veal. And I didn't say most calves are killed for veal, I said most male calves. Indeed, most female calves are raised to become dairy cows, and some male calves are raised to become beef cows, or bulls used for their semen for artificially inseminating dairy cows, or in some cases for mating.

    Overall you might say then that most calves are raised until a few years old for slaughter, either as dairy cows, dairy bulls or beef cattle (keep in mind they can live until 20-25 years), but most male calves are killed as babies for veal.

    "Because male cattle cannot produce milk, dairy producers treat these animals as disposable—or “surplus.” Some are sold to be raised for beef, likely on crowded feedlots with up to 150,000 cattle crammed into filthy enclosures. Others—in fact, the majority—will be sold for veal. The remaining calves will be killed shortly after birth."

    https://thehumaneleague.org/article/veal-animal#:~:text=Because%20male%20cattle%20cannot%20produce,will%20be%20sold%20for%20veal.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/mar/26/dairy-dirty-secret-its-still-cheaper-to-kill-male-calves-than-to-rear-them

  • Ok I have another example.

    Another example might involve arguing that the disposal of hazardous waste is necessary because it's a byproduct of a particular manufacturing process, while ignoring the question of whether that manufacturing process itself is essential or necessary. This fallacy occurs when one justifies an undesirable or harmful element as a necessary component of a larger practice or system without questioning the necessity of the entire system or practice.

  • How is it not a false dichotomy? It erroneously forces us to choose between 2 options, when in actual fact there is a third option.

    And, I'm really not. I was asked for an example/elaboration of how the fallacy might be used, and that was my best example. However it can likely apply to other situations too. If you recall, I initially just asked for what the fallacy might be called, without specifying any examples until I was asked for one.

  • Actually almost all male calves do (in the dairy industry), because they can't produce milk and it wouldn't be profitable or financially feasible to keep them alive otherwise

    "Male dairy calves are surplus to the requirement of dairy production, and thus, are often sold from the dairy farm in early life. In the United States, male calves are generally sold within days of birth (Shivley et al., 2019) for veal or dairy beef production (Perdue and Hamer, 2017). Raising young male dairy calves for meat, particularly veal, is a contentious issue that has received public scrutiny in the United States (e.g., California Prop 2, 2008) and globally (reviewed by Bolton and von Keyserlingk, 2021)."

    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fanim.2022.1000897/full

  • One I can think of is false dilemma/false dichotomy (a false premise that erroneously limits what options are available, and forces us to choose between 2 options (either cause unnecessary harm and waste the full usefulness of the harm, or cause unnecessary harm and maximise its usefulness) when there is a third option to not cause the unnecessary harm in the first place.

    However that's more general and I was looking for something more specific that refers to assuming something is necessary because it's an unavoidable component of another thing which itself is unnecessary.

  • I can provide an example, but you might hate me for it. I swear this is just to explain what I mean by this fallacy because I can't think of another example right now.

    Justifying killing/using an animal for its skin/hide (e.g. leather or fur), because you're already killing the animal for its flesh, when in actual fact the killing of the animal doesn't need to take place at all (hypothetically).

    Or justifying the killing of calves for veal as a necessary component of dairy production, when in fact dairy production isn't necessary, either.

    I hope that makes sense

  • Interesting, other responses here say it's the other way round, with morality being more societally-derived and ethics being either more personally interpreted, or more practical/logical in spite of culturally conventional moral ideas.

    Part of why I asked this question is because I seem to see morality and ethics defined to mean the opposite of each other in different places, and this kind of proves that to be the case lol

  • I completely agree. Would you, in theory, be in support of giving rights to all sentient beings where possible, ensuring the best possible treatment and experiences of all individuals that have a conscious/subjective experience of life?

    I would ideally like to see humanity extend moral/ethical consideration beyond humans to all animals, hypothetical alien animals, sentient AI, or any other sentients that emerged in future. I believe sentientism is the core underlying philosophy behind this idea of ethics.

  • Thanks for your reply. :)

    Wouldn't ethics then define right and wrong in terms of its impact on the well-being of sentient beings, rather than just human well-being?

    And I suppose the difference with morality might be that certain actions that don't necessarily negatively impact other sentient beings, such as recreational drug use, might still be considered immoral by some due to cultural norms rather than practical considerations about the rightness or wrongness of them?

  • So then the raw vegan influencer that starved herself to death, how isn't that proof that vegan diets are unhealthy? She was only having juice smoothies and not drinking any water.

  • Thanks, and this is proof that vegan diets are unhealthy, right?

  • Lol that's hilarious, thanks for this. Very funny skits that capture a particular kind of Redditor (maybe the average as the name implies?). I don't feel like this really accurately represents my situation though, since this guy is just douchey and pretentious/arrogant about everything, and nitpicks and corrects people over every small and trivial detail.

    At least from my point of view, I'm not the one that starts arguments or argues over things unless it's particularly important, and even then I try to let it go unless I'm being actively confronted by it.

    It probably makes a difference to know that only one person has ever said these things to me. I've just looked into the phenomenon happening with other people as well (on Reddit 😆), and often it is just a single person in their life who does it. So it seems like either this one person is unreasonable, or the problem manifests only with them somehow.

    I guess working from the position that I have reason to believe I'm in the right (not in the sense of "trying" to be right all the time, but about being genuinely stuck in a position where no matter what I do, I'll be accused of these things anyway), it stumps me and makes me feel that even the most rational reply I could give would be met with "I have an answer for everything"... if they don't like the fact that I'm answering them, what answer could possibly suffice? I don't see what I'm supposed to do there.